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Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Test Alliance Please Ignore
13613
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Posted - 2016.02.14 10:14:13 -
[1] - Quote
Dawny Star wrote:You know I didn't have a problem with skill injectors in principle, they allow some younger players to catch up, allow some older players to move some skills around , great, brilliant, like half of EvE I also can no longer mine. I've also gotten a leg up on the character bazarre like many many others, so a little bit of help in this huge time sink I get.
But this, and I want to be clear I watch Iron's streams and I like the guy, this makes me feel a bit sad. I don't feel quite the same about my 9 years in EvE as I did before skill injectors and people going over the top with it.
CCP you should have set a few more boundaries on this.
An sp per month limit would have been the way to go. |
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Test Alliance Please Ignore
13616
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Posted - 2016.02.14 18:34:21 -
[2] - Quote
Barrett Fruitcake wrote:I once thought is was amazing that it would take 20-30 years to train all this skills in this game.
I think something has been lost....
Of course I do too. But because SP trading is not completely "P2W", some people don't have the foresight to see why this is bad. It's nothing new, there were people defending Dominion's Sov system for like 2 years after it was implemented even though the bad affects of that system were already apparent.
People selling or buying SP and maxing out characters isn't the end of the world, it is an early warning indicator of truly bad things to come. It shows that CCP doesn't understand the value of the things they keep putting on the chopping block. Even after draining 2 characters I'm still sitting on enough SP to keep my 4 accounts in plexes (at current plex prices) for like 3 years. WTF CCP? |
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Test Alliance Please Ignore
13621
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Posted - 2016.02.14 21:58:25 -
[3] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:No, plenty believed it would happen, but most didn't see it as an issue. The only ones who do are those who consider SP as a valuation of their time in game and hold that as something significant. Well, those and people who view SP as "earned" advantages that certain players or characters should be disallowed by age.
This is the kind of thing one tells himself when he really can't (or does not want to) understand the reasoning of other people. It's proof of a disingenuous personality.
It is actually possible to care about an issue that doesn't negatively affect you personally (well, directly anyways). I put no value on skill points, which is why my highest SP character stopped training after about 90 mil skill points. But I do care about the game we play, and this SP trading is a disastrous mistake.
One of the best things about CCP was that (with the exception of monoclegate) they were one of the few non-cash grabbing game companies. They asked for a fair price, and gave fair access to a good product. Unlike very many companies (not just game companies, telecom companies are the worst), CCP didn't play the 'get you in, gouge you, and offer ever better incentives to new customers so they can get gouged too, and screw the loyal existing customers' game. Until now that is.
I like many CCP employees, and few have been as outspoken of his support for CCP than I have. That moral support of CCP is no longer the case, because in doing this they proved (for the second time in 13 years) that they are just another greedy game developer.
There is zero compelling in-game reasons to make the move they made. If entrenches the rich. It tells the new player "here is an easy to use short cut, just give us more money up front" It sets those same newcomers up to fail as they don't have the personal experience to USE the SP they bought meaning they will be nothing more than joke killmails after a while.
Up till this month I used to pay cash for 1 sub and plex the other 3 because that made sense for me. Now I have a stack of PLEX, enough for several months so far (and this from only draining 2 alts). I've profited in game and out from this (saving that 15 bucks means 2 more trips to Burger King this month, woot), and I still think it is a horrible example of a company selling out the previously held principles that made it great in the 1st place. At the end of the day it's just a video game, but it's still a shame t see this happen. |
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Test Alliance Please Ignore
13633
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Posted - 2016.02.15 15:16:18 -
[4] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:So SP farm is your point?
That was done before you know... History Time Public information.
#1 Eff who ever is responsible for SP trading at CCP for they are also responsible for making me aggree with Jenshae Chiroptera.
#2. SP trading is far worse than the character bazaar for more than just history, time, and public information. There is also finality.
I've sold 4 characters in my time in EVE. I was fine with 3 of them but I grew to regret one of them. I had something of an attachment to that character but I sold it because it was worth alot and I already had 4 other characters that could do the same things, and I wanted the isk to speed up some lvl 5 mission experiments I was conducting.
When i sold it, it was gone. NOW no such thing has to happen. You can drain a character of it's SP, and if you come to regret doing that, all you need to do is retrain it. All it cost you was a bit of time.
CCP took something that was almost irreversible (I say almost because theoretically you could by the character back, but the owner would have to be willing to sell which might not be the case) and turned it into a renewable resource. Already, the alts I drained are training new SP for me to sell.
In a way, they have replicated their Cosmic Anomaly mistake of 2009. For Dominion CCP took cosmic anomalies (which were minor easy to find encounters that could escalate to complexes) and made them the center of the system upgrade scheme. Instantly they proved to be bad for the economy leading to a series of nerfs then buffs then nerfs that have left them in their current state. It was a mistake, anoms were never built for that, so now we have this 20 trillion isk per month afkable nightmare situation that totally Fs up the EVE economy in several ways.
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Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Test Alliance Please Ignore
13633
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 15:45:35 -
[5] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
I've sold 4 characters in my time in EVE. I was fine with 3 of them but I grew to regret one of them. I had something of an attachment to that character but I sold it because it was worth alot and I already had 4 other characters that could do the same things, and I wanted the isk to speed up some lvl 5 mission experiments I was conducting.
When i sold it, it was gone. NOW no such thing has to happen. You can drain a character of it's SP, and if you come to regret doing that, all you need to do is retrain it. All it cost you was a bit of time.
CCP took something that was almost irreversible (I say almost because theoretically you could by the character back, but the owner would have to be willing to sell which might not be the case) and turned it into a renewable resource. Already, the alts I drained are training new SP for me to sell.
My old characters are in Doomheim, it seems a bad move now as I could of used the isk and extracted the sp for this one. But I don't really regret it as for me at the time I decided it was the right thing to do. You sold a character and you regretted it, what's that got to do with your present character? Are your characters like employees and you are playing at being their manager? And regret letting a good employee go? You're talking about how you feel outside of the game, those kind of concequences don't matter in-game.
This is one of those moments where you realize that any reply (beyond this one sentence) would be wasted effort.
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Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Test Alliance Please Ignore
13642
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Posted - 2016.02.16 13:33:17 -
[6] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Lady Anorexia wrote:Admiral Mason wrote:http://eveboard.com/pilot/IronBank
Make of it what you will. Seems CCP is going the way of Blizzard plus a pinch of EA. Yeah it's such a bad move for a corporation to follow the "lead" of successful ones...
So there is no room for a (heretofore) ethical game company that (with the exception of monoclegate) doesn't seem to want to soak it's customers?
That's the underlying issue, and it's the issue the SP trade supporters don't understand. No one (in their right minds that is) cares about imaginary prestige of having more SP than new players. And no one with any sense things these new botox injected high SP characters are going to beat down older/less SP players in pvp.
The actual issue is disappointment.
-Disappointment in watching a company that up till now offered a square deal (flat subscription for access, with PLEX and the Character Bazaar being palatable short cuts people could take at higher cost) turning into a company that seems to want to squeeze every penny out of newer folks and veterans alike.
-Disappointment because in monetizing the game like this CCP creates yet another wealth faucet that will cheapen the experiences in the game. Loses are already trivial for anyone that can fly an Ishtar in null sec, a bomber in FW or an incursion ship in high sec, and now it's worse because New Eden will be flooded with isk that previously sat in some rich guy's wallet doing nothing. SP trading creates a flow of wealth from new/poor to rich/establihsed that wasn't possible before (because the Character Bazaar had limits).
SP trading isn't the end of EVE. It can't imo be called p2w because there is nothing to win. It is a horrible example of "corporate greed in the false name of progress"
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Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Test Alliance Please Ignore
13645
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Posted - 2016.02.16 13:58:51 -
[7] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:
I usually agree with the points you make as they are valid, but this is just sounds like anger because its not what you want, ccp are not forcing anyone to spend money and they have played it out to try and satisfy vets and newbies, cant win them all though can you?
The companies that abuse 'whale' type players aren't forcing anyone to do anyhting. Neither are casinos that prey on gambling addicts.
The good ting about CCP before now is that they were one of the companies that didn't do the above. Now they are. That aren't forcing anyone, they are simply preying on those weak enough to spend real life money to 'progress faster' in a game.
What's worse is that EVE is a game where progressing faster means nothing.
Quote:
-Disappointment in watching a company that up till now offered a square deal (flat subscription for access, with PLEX and the Character Bazaar being palatable short cuts people could take at higher cost) turning into a company that seems to want to squeeze every penny out of newer folks and veterans alike.
this paragraph just seems like a total entitlement whine, let me ask you something, if the above statement was so great and ccp stuck to a deadend business model which clearly was not working to keep new players here, how exactly do they make money? they cant raise sub subscriptions because that causes outrage, how do they research new tech, pay for better servers, pay the developers in an constant price inflating world where subscriptions seem to be falling?
You act like CCP was in some kind of poor house. They weren't EVE was making a profit, apparently not enough of a profit for stake holders, but more than enough to do what they were doing. Apparently their financial situation was good enough to borrow 30 million dollars for Valkyrie. No bank I know of loans money to unprofitable business.
Your problem is that you aren't being properly critical of this issue because you seem to have paired it with some belief that EVE would die without out it. CCP could have done a whole slew of other things instead of this, they could have stuck to the 'cosmetic only' micro transactions and simply gotten better at making things like Skins (we told them during the skin bug that we'd pay for more customization ability, for example).
Quote:
This doesnt personally affect your game unless you choose to let it affect your game
I expected more from you than this kind of cop out. That's the kind of thing people say when they know they are defending a bad thing. I'm going to bookmark this particular post and show it to you in a year or so when the deleterious affects of this new unnecessary wealth faucet has had time to affect the game.
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Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Test Alliance Please Ignore
13645
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Posted - 2016.02.16 14:03:24 -
[8] - Quote
ImYourMom wrote:oh well Star Citizen will be out soon... online users will drop dramatically bets on 10K or less?
The worse ting about all of this is that it's made me (me, who is amongst the most fanatical EVE players ever) start to think about life without EVE. Not that me playing something else it would put a dent in CCP.
But in this case, CCP has made Chris freaking Roberts seem like the more honest prospect. At least he takes money out of people front pockets for his pipe dream as opposed to CCPs new back pocket SP trading tactic....
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Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Test Alliance Please Ignore
13650
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Posted - 2016.02.16 14:40:55 -
[9] - Quote
stg slate wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
The companies that abuse 'whale' type players aren't forcing anyone to do anyhting. Neither are casinos that prey on gambling addicts.
The good ting about CCP before now is that they were one of the companies that didn't do the above. Now they are. That aren't forcing anyone, they are simply preying on those weak enough to spend real life money to 'progress faster' in a game.
What's worse is that EVE is a game where progressing faster means nothing.
And there it is, the e-honor space bushido argument. Paying money to advance in a game is 'weak'. Not allowing players this option is 'good', therefore allowing it must be 'bad'. That indeed bad and dishonorable, bad CCP : / CCP Falcon must atone harikari. Just because you don't have disposable income to spend on gaming doesn't make others weak for doing so. Use it as incentive to do better life. If you do have money and don't spend then just admit other people spend for their hobbies more than you. Its not bad just different, like buying a fancy golf club set when a cheaper set would work just fine.
Oh look an apologist for abusive cor prate greed that preys. Where is Mr. Epeen with his Fox News analogies now I wonder?
But more seriously, I've been at my job for 18 years this next May, I have plenty to spend on a game. Buiy why would I need to since I've made 25 bil stripping unwanted toons of sp?
What you are doing is trying to imagine that opposition to SP trading is based on some form of personal self intertets. People do this as a way of minimizing other folks ideas (with the side affect of not having to thing critically about their own).
Well sorry, this isn't about self interest other than my personal love of what EVE is. SP trading doens't hurt me, hell it's helped, I don't have to worry about game time for months now. So what if I get a bad drop for a 10/10 or 'ammo and a tag' from a faction spawn. My SP farming alts are producing WEALTH right now at the rate of 2200 SP per hour.
You see, some of us can look past mere short term self interest when anaylsing a problem. SP is great for individuals (like me) short term, it's bad long term because it affects a wide array of issue (like incentive to play for older players, incentive to learn for younger players etc) that it was not intended to. Like I did with Dominion (when all those idiot proclaimed the coming death of the big blocs), I plan on saving this thread and showing it to you in about a year. |
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Test Alliance Please Ignore
13651
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Posted - 2016.02.16 15:10:00 -
[10] - Quote
stg slate wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
Oh look an apologist for abusive corprate greed that preys on the gullible.
Wait what, making money is corporate greed? Stop being smelly hippy. Game makers don't prey on people; people can make own choice to pay for hobbies. Selling people fancy golf clubs not taking advantage people, some people like fancy clubs even when cheaper ones work fine.
This isn't golf clubs for rich people (whatever a responsible person does with his or her money is their business), this is someone intentionally deciding to open a liquor store right next to an alcoholic's anonymous meeting house then pretending like they didn't know their were alcoholics nearby.... |
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Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Test Alliance Please Ignore
13662
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Posted - 2016.02.16 15:41:58 -
[11] - Quote
stg slate wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:This isn't golf clubs for rich people (whatever a responsible person does with his or her money is their business), this is someone intentionally deciding to open a liquor store right next to an alcoholic's anonymous meeting house then pretending like they didn't know their were alcoholics nearby.... So EVE players are not responsible person? Cynical, obvious you think you so smart from posts, but all the rest of players are irresponsible children who can't be trusted not to spend rent money on injectors?
Yep, another one of those deny the truth mindsets. Where did I say "all the rest"?
I'm sure most EVE players are responsible people. But some aren't, some are even mentally ill and vulnerable. What was good about CCP before now was that they weren't one of the companies that adopted the predatory moves (that targeted thos vulnerable types) with regards to their business. Sure, they had a harsh game, but as a company they were mostly above board except during monoclegate.
Now they seem to be on the path of being like the soulless gaming mega companies that no one I know likes but everyone seems to give money to (EA,Daybreak, Blizzard etc). They're literally transforming from friendly niche mom-and pop eatery on the corner into McDonalds. Don't we have enough McDonalds?
Thus the term 'sell out', such as when you sell out the solid and respectable principles that let you survive so long and create a fanatically loyal fanbase (ie people like me) in an attempt to go mainstream and make more money. Plot twist: It doesn't make you any more money in the long run AND you ticked off the loyal fanbase by just attempting it lol. |
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Test Alliance Please Ignore
13664
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Posted - 2016.02.16 15:59:45 -
[12] - Quote
stg slate wrote:
Yes that strategy works terribly for EA, Riot, Blizzard, etc, that's why those companies are in the poorhouse and about to close.
You are exactly the kind of consumer these people need to exist. I mean, as long as they're making money, who cares about respectability, ethics, and square dealing? We couldn't have Wal-Mart killing every single small business in a 10 mile radius around one of their stores without your type lol. Congrats.
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Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Test Alliance Please Ignore
13665
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Posted - 2016.02.16 16:40:28 -
[13] - Quote
stg slate wrote:Avvy wrote:
The only thing that makes sense to me with this post I'm replying to, is that sp injectors can be addictive.
Yeah, but so can trading cards, but people are making it seem like the pokemon people making trading cards is like heroin dealer targeting children.
You might not not have kids that live with you, because that's exactly how it feels.. I suffered a pokemon war in my own house. Kids are grown now but looking back over those battles I'd rather they'd just smoked weed or something...
Death to pokemon. |
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Test Alliance Please Ignore
13666
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Posted - 2016.02.16 16:56:09 -
[14] - Quote
stg slate wrote:Magic cards, same drug different company  All joking aside though, no one sucks a **** or stabs someone for pokemon cards. And they won't for injectors either.
Oh really?
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Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Test Alliance Please Ignore
13668
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Posted - 2016.02.16 18:32:40 -
[15] - Quote
Big Lynx wrote:
Tell that the new instant gratification generation. Its like describing a rainbow to a blind man
They'll learn eventually (in game and out). They won't like it, but they'll learn.
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Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Test Alliance Please Ignore
13668
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Posted - 2016.02.16 18:41:26 -
[16] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Big Lynx wrote:
Tell that the new instant gratification generation. Its like describing a rainbow to a blind man
They'll learn eventually (in game and out). They won't like it, but they'll learn. That sounds more like a threat.
It's a prediction that all of these people that don't understand why patience is a virtue (and seeking instant gratification leads to bad outcomes) will understand when they are older, because life (not me) will teach them. That's real life, and that's what I taught my children.
EVE is a lot like that too.
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Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Test Alliance Please Ignore
13668
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Posted - 2016.02.16 18:52:25 -
[17] - Quote
Avvy wrote:
I doubt life will teach me anything new.
This is the least surprising statement I've ever read on this forum. |
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